A play on the triumph and losses in performance and life. The Talent Tank podcast will navigate the inner workings of lifestyle, lives, family, teams, careers, programs, and technology in and around the offroad motorsports industry. What breeds success with your Talent Tank on full, failures when its on empty. From the journey to the Starting Line to take that Green Flag, on to exploring trials and tribulations on and off the track in pursuit of victorious achievement and the Checkered Flag.
No stranger to off-road racing, going fast, breathing dust, mud, and bad mustaches, the venerable Brad Lovell @bradlovell44 steps into the tank and tells us what it takes to take it all off, and risk it all! We are kicking off the Spring 2021 Season of The Talent Tank! EP 41 will not disappoint! As the current driver of the #242 ULTRA4 Racing car, to his deep history in rock sports, years as a professional short course driver, hill climbs, desert racing, and his current position consulting with Ford Motors on the return of the Bronco. Not an episode to miss, as we get to know this Colorado Springs native a whole lot better, and what it is that's kept him ticking in competitive off-road for nearly two decades.
After the Checkered Flag-
The Pam-American Highway and the crazy race it once hosted.
Once upon a time, before budget airlines and global warming, when driving long distances at high speeds in dangerous cars was still something of a noble pursuit, the people of the Americas, the North and the South, built a bewildering network of roads that spanned not one, but two complete continents. Across mountains and plains and valleys and jungles, and through cities and villages and farmland, this network of tarmac still connects Alaska with Argentina. It stretches nearly 48,000km and is completely motorable by any reasonable car, except for a small, around160km stretch of formidable rainforest.
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Let's drop the green flag on this episode of the talent tank podcast with your host Wyatt Pemberton bringing you the best fastest most knowledgeable personalities and ultra for and off road racing alright alright alright alright here we go the talent tank back in session took off you know for let's call it something of the winner you know king of the hammers we had the the pre show with Myles then of course we all know what happened at King hammers 2021 What a great event ultra for absolutely smoked down the park without one under COVID. They still pulled it off is really impressive. But you guys didn't harrassed you didn't dial into hear me talk about what happened at cailleach 2021. You definitely showed up today to listen to my good buddy Brad level level racing level brothers. Brad, how are you? Good wine. I'm really happy to be part of this. I've learned a lot of interesting things about a lot of people and I'm happy to share some of my story. Well, your story is amazing. And I've known you since 2008 2007. Somewhere in there through zarei our good friend JT Taylor introduced us I think that you know, I knew who you got you guys were always these racing these blue Rangers, you and your brother Roger, I can tell you to very easily apart today. 1215 years ago, I would always get Brad and Roger confused and so I was always leery to call. Which one the right one? So sorry about that. No, no, no worries. I'm like that with some people to you know, hey, fella. How you doing? You know, I get it. We get called twins all the time. We're not Rogers three years older. But I do have twin boys. So that only and further confuses it further confuses in the amazing wife, Natalie, that lets you chase your dreams. Indeed, indeed. she's a she's a good manager. We'll talk we'll talk about your family here in a little bit. But so here we are. You know, by the time everyone is listening to this now, Moab will be behind us ultra for Moab. It will have been this past weekend. Brad, good luck. You're in the throes of prepping for that that's almost it's not your backyard race. But it's pretty. It's one of your closer events. It is it's definitely a place we've been going for a lot of years. But you know, actually, we have something a little different going on this year. I'm not racing in the ultra for event. We're going out there and putting on a bronco ride and drive. So we're gonna have a bunch of Bronco sports a bunch of Broncos that people can ride around and get a ride with a pro driver. Brad, you're from Colorado Springs, right? Just Yep. Yeah, born in Colorado Springs, and you still live there today. You've you've been racing for 15 years greater than a long time through a lot of different genres. We're gonna definitely get into all that. But here as of late in the last When did you mean? Well, you've been a Ford guy is back as far as back as I remember. Racing, these Ford Bronco chassis, you know, with fiberglass body panels that you that look like a ranger. And today, you're kind of working the dream, right? You're working for your for Ford as a consultant. And you're currently on the bronco program. Yeah, it's been a focus now for just under four years. But it's been really exciting for me in my career to be involved with Bronco and Ford, my brother and I've always been four guys we grew up bouncing around in the backseat of a bronco. And you know, we when we got into off roading, Roger got a bronco to I got a ranger. And we did it recreationally. And then, you know, coming up through motor sports, we always wanted to stay forward and there, there were a lot of years where it really wasn't easy. And there's still not a lot of Ford motors out on the grid there. But it's really something special to be to be able to be part of something like like Bronco, I mean, it's a once in a lifetime deal to to be part of that program and and honestly have some influence in it and where it goes. So, yeah, it's been a dream job. How do you like or deal with having this vehicle, this new platform that's out there that the masses are now buying? We're starting to see him on the streets to have your DNA on it. It's pretty cool. And you know, I won't kid you. There's quite a while where I started doing support work. And then they eventually, you know, I offered too many opinions, let's say so, they brought me on more as a consultant, but to see the bronco unveil unveiled, you know, privately to learn about it, you know, you kind of hold on to that and it's your, it's your baby, nobody else knows about it. So it's releasing that to the masses, when people get to see what it is. And now I know everybody's just dying to actually touch and feel one and get to go drive it and see what it is. I'm really excited for That I really am because I, it's not just a bunch of lip service, it's authentic. And honestly, I would, again, I'm not gonna kid you, I would want to be involved with the program one way or another, I've never been involved with the development of an OEM vehicle and I would have done it one way or another but to have it come out as authentic as it is to have the engineers at Ford to see the need and to finally look to the offer community for not only support but as customers and they want to make it better for us, rather than you know, taken away to make things better on roads. So it's it's pretty neat to be part of that in my circle, you know, outside of offered and professional world, you know, real life. That group of people no means it has to be this offer to this vehicle, this vehicle enthusiast this motor hegde whatever you call it, and get to get the questions like Hey, man, what do you think of this new Bronco? And I'm like, Well, you see the videos where it's like the closed course professional driver. That's my friend Brad driving. And there's no way like, Yeah, that's it. I see that on TV in to see the bronco coming to life and being videoed. I assume that is in Johnson Valley. You guys shot it looks like Johnson Valley. Yeah, that that was a busy time out there. We there just been a lot of rain. And we're doing a lot of activities. So we being driven dynamic, do a lot of support work for Ford, and then we're, you know, also I, I've taken on some driving duties and consulting duties. So we, we had a whole mess of testing going on. And then outcomes the the marketing effort, and it was, it was a big deal. And and there was there's a lot of pressure because they they want everything to be perfect. And understandably so. But, you know, we're You and I were we're flying out towards Pitt to let's say, and there's some books and we're off the side of the insurance road, that's perfect for us. But it has to be right so that it can be filmed so that the production bus can be there. You know, it's big stuff. And so it took quite a bit of scouting and sorting it out. But we did a really good job. I'm really proud of the way that whole deal came out. I did a fair amount of driving for it. And a couple of the engineers did some more driving, there's more cool stuff that hit the cutting room floor then you'd imagine and for me, I've done I've done some stunt driving and some camera work stuff. But this was really cool because they had the camera on a big arm hanging off the truck, whatever that thing's called, in a drone that had a, I don't know, five foot wingspan, and they're flying that thing, like almost parked on the hood. Why? And you got to you can't even react, you just got to keep driving through it. So, boy, and there are a couple shots, I can remember one or that big arm coming off the pursuit. I think it's called a pursuit. But swinging across like right in front of me. And you know, you just nailed the shot and that that's what's really cool it. It's I enjoy doing all those things. I love racing, but a lot of these other things. It's a there's still pressure, but it's not the pressure I put on myself for racing. So I really enjoy it. It's a new challenge. Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of fun and rainy and unique conditions out there in Johnson Valley. So I think it kind of shows up in what we're talking about is that you know, the reveal video, which I'm sure if you haven't seen it go back and look at it on YouTube or something. But it's it's pretty cool. How much fun is it to work with, or in call these guys teammates now to some extent, but Vaughn getan and Lauren Healy. They're now it's running for power plants there. Are they've converted? Yeah, it's uh, yeah, well, yeah, I guess. I'm glad you brought it up. Because you know, we're, we've always been Bronco, folks. It's great. We're, you know, spent a lot of time with Bailey Cole and Jason shear, Jason's been a longtime friend through BFG. And both Vaughn and Lauren been involved with them with a couple different activities. It's, it's great and what is really developing around it is kind of the same team that we have with the BFG Performance Team, which you know, everybody's looking out for the group and really trying to help each other out to do the best for for ultimately BFG on that team and on this team forward so everybody brings a little bit something different to the table and has a little bit different mission. But it's it's been great so far, and I brought me you know, those guys are all my friends but to work on some exclusive like this It gets you a little closer, I guess. Well yeah, there's definitely friendship you on track where you're trying to beat each other and you know, you're cheering you're cheering your competitor on, but at the same time, like you still want to now being on that. You guys have the The same you're on the same side of the coin, right? You're, you're trying to push this, this amazing, you know, OEM vehicle out to the, to the masses and, and to do it through your medium. right you guys brought forward to the table for used kicking the hammers this year as just a launch pad for this new platform. How cool was that? Honestly, it is and hats off to Dave Cole Honestly, I mean, I, I was really skeptical if the event was going to happen at all. And then it you know, I was raised in two trucks down out there. And then it felt like we're tripling down on the bet with doing this ride and drive with Ford and having Ford out there and wanting to put on the best impression we can for those guys. So but you know, everybody had perseverance and had courage to do something a little bit different. And the thing is about Bronco it's it's not a Jeep for didn't want to build a Jeep, and I'm glad they didn't build a Jeep it's a little bit different. And it's really good at going fast. When a Jeep you know, the fast you drive a Jeep, it just starts hurting, and it just bangs you around. But in a bronco The faster you go, it starts to show its spirit. So cruzan 6070 miles an hour out in Johnson Valley and getting up through some rocks. That's pretty much the ride and drive we put on. And I think like I said it took a little courage from everybody to find a way to do it safely. And I think we did and we're you know planning to do the same thing out in Moab. Now granted, we're you know, to me mo ABS a little different. We're not going to go fly in 6070 miles around Moab over whoops. But there's a lot of terrain out there that the bronco can really shine in as well. So tell me as we talked about the train in this vehicle, and I don't want this to be the bronco show. But here in the beginning we're gonna because I have some questions. So I see a video. It's in like tight, tight Woods course. And I said Woods course I don't think it was a course I think it was just off road with woods. And the rocket goes around a corner and literally it drags its back tire and I'm assisting heading brakes. So it you guys, where did Where did the cutting brakes? Or the the turning breaker? How does that activate? And how did that come to the table? And how did that end up on the vehicle? And how does that end up in production? Because that's an amazing feature. Yeah, so what's what's you're talking about, it's called trail turn assist. And what it's modeled after doing a front burn in a rock crawler, or screwing around in the sand. So, you know, we do not have the ability to disengage the rear drive because it's a conventional transfer case. But the next best thing you can do is cut power to one wheel and grab the brake there. And you know, tech technology is only marching forward and I say it time. And again. What's great about the bronco is it finally that technology is for us guys off road. So it has an electronic brake booster and ABB and what that can do is through electronics or functions grab individual brakes. So you take the rear locker out, you engage trail turn assist, and when you go to full lock on the wheel, it'll lock up the inside tire. So and and really it works at 80% as well as a front burn. I mean, if you if you have a rock face, you can turn around right on a dime, you know, and so the idea that they're bringing that technology in it's a hoot in the sand. There's that and other technology that's just for off roading just for you and me and that's what I love about it. You said it's a hoot. I love that phrase. Yeah. It is very cool technology and to see that we we get it and it's gonna hit the production. Hopefully he's got you know, we're gonna see this massive influx in overlanders maybe more so than now. I Well, I think obviously it's a it's an overlanding vehicle. There's, there's great opportunity, there's a whole system figured out for you know, roof racks and all that business and taking the top off and it's modular so you don't have to store it like a Jeep top. Another another really cool feature on it that's near and dear to my heart is called a one pedal and what one pedal does, you know, for people who are listening to drive fast in the rocks or kind of rocks at all, it's a proven technique to use brake overlap, so your left foot braking and I do it a ton. I mean a modulating the brake to control the chassis to keep it settled down and climbing up over rocks. Instead of just letting off with one foot and hitting the brake. You can just control it right there. So you're not plodding around on the rocks as much. Well, they took that technology and put it in a bronco also. So with one pedal. Let's say roughly the first 10 15% of the throttle pedal is more brake. So you have to add 15% throttle to start moving to drive it through the brakes. And then when you lift off the throttle, it clamps down on the brakes again. So it's it's simulating left foot braking. In, do they control it through like through like a torque converter like it like is it very it's, it's all through braking, huh? So it's fun, like one of the people, one of the engineers called the brake pedal, the brake pedal simulator, which it kills me because it's, it's not brake by wire, but it's almost brake by wire. So now you can unlock all these features like trail turn assist, like one pedal through technology. So that brings up my next question, how much of that stuff stays involved with what we saw unveiled out at Johnson valley with this 4600 race program? Right. So 4600 race program. That's it another awesome project that I've been involved with for a number of months now. And why I had, I had a lot of meetings about integrating this brake technology into the 4600. And what we finally decided is, you know what, let's take it out. And for now, let's go with a just a traditional balance bar, it's pretty advanced thing guys are has going on, but it's not going to require the calibration, that this electronic system wood. So a lot of the things we're doing when we're testing and, and doing durability stuff is proving out these systems looking for error states. And it's, it's unbelievable how many configurable things there are in a modern vehicle, it's in the hundreds of 1000s. So you have to weed out every case. And honestly, for for what we're trying to do on a timeframe with the 4600 which is a an early prototype Bronco, it's kind of out of the question right now. But if you're wondering about racing applications, so am I awesome. I'm glad we're our minds are in the same spot. I don't want to gloss over this because I I think this is one of the I think this is probably the coolest thing to happen to ultra for racing in the last decade. And that's not that shouldn't be taken lightly over foreign Dave and Jeff Knoll and everybody have really taken this industry a place we never you know, in 10 years 12 years 13 years could never imagine and I remember back in the days and I know you remember these days because you were always running the stock body on your on your vehicles. I remember RJ brown running the yellow Toyota body on his truck and and everyone believed at some point that the way to get big dollars in the door big marketing in the door was to get the OEMs on board with rock sports and competitive rock sports and it was the the belief was around you know the factory bodying your vehicle and what do we have? We have a bunch of jeeps right we have every you know everybody makes a Jeep hood from twisted custom to to Shannon Campbell they make fiberglass Jeep hoods Christer Um, and so there's a lot of Jeep buggies out there. Not a lot of Ford buggies, not a lot of Toyota buggies. And here we are. Ford an OEM now has a factory racing program inside of the ultra for a venue and and that just when you think like OEM racing, I think of like team Honda and Tim green and those guys that are racing baja on dirt bikes, we didn't see it in you know, the big vehicles you know, now we're starting to see Honda get involved. Jeep hasn't been involved in racing. We've just they've written the coattails of racers turning their vehicles into racers, right. canggih stepping up now, what was the first year Ford was in Super involved with King of the hammers two years ago? Oh, yeah, this this was the second year for involvement with King of the hammers. And years ago, I think maybe 2008 maybe somewhere around there. 2007 2008. We, we worked with Ford a bit and and had them as a partner for our team. And that's when we went through and did the newer fiberglass on our truck. And that it's a hard sport to understand. I think it was harder than because it was, you know, more eclectic when you're just doing the the pro rock crawling versus people understand speed people get speed. That's easy. So and that that lasted a couple years and it didn't certainly didn't end on on bad terms, but it was you know, kind of time to go look elsewhere for our team and we had a short tenure with Nissan and short course racing, which was awesome as well. But I guess you know, kind of where we're at now with Ford. I mean, there's there is a lot of technical expertise He's that that gets traded back and forth between us race guys and the engineers, and it's certainly a lot more than a marketing exercise. Yeah, absolutely. But you, when you back into it, though, it's still at this level, it's still all has to be a marketing exercise for the OEM to to get involved. Obviously, there's a lot of engineering and trial by fire and there's no better testbed then in between the green flag and the checkered flag. I mean, that goes back back to all automotive racing you know, the developed even in a NASCAR developed an f1. And, and how we see the trickle down on like, just the brake systems going from there at the top to the OEM, and you see the boil down, you see, if this thing can survive 24 hours of Oman's, then it's damn well better be good for this Mercedes. Right? Well, the thing that is really important to note about the the 4600 it's, it's built by geyser and obviously you know, I've had some influence in IT consulting on it but to me it's very much a Ford vehicle there are Ford engineers reviewing all the designs and and I'm sitting in meetings talking about different aspects of racing and off road racing, specifically and then rock sports. You know, it's it's hard to understand these guys have all the right answers they have. They're the smartest guys in the room, but they have to understand off road and then rock sports on top of that so that's kind of where I've been involved but the big thing that I think everybody should realize this is a Ford Bronco This is designed by Ford and signed off by Ford it's not like for giving me a bronco and hey go you know build it however you want to build it. So that's really kind of what makes this program special I think so for the people that don't know we're talking about you know guys or guys or brothers out of there in Phoenix long pedigree trophy trucks basically the who's if they've raced trophy truck they raced it in a geyser at one point people referred to the trophy truck classes like guys are spectrum class there's been some you know, some diversion there and and a lot of other people have stepped up to the plate light you know Mason and then you know like Jason moss has his own guys building trucks and then the TSC o trucks herps building their own stuff but they're for the longest time it was geyser geyser geyser How did that relationship come to fruition between Ford and geyser that's a really cool marriage yeah so for did a lot of homework a lot of sniffing around a few years ago and and settled on geyser is there you know factory builder let's say so guys are built the bronco are which is really kept under wraps and then is hammered steel and yeah this one y'all raced in Baja Yep. So So Bronco are was more of a conceptual vehicle let's say or they had more liberties versus this stock class 4600 so it had a fiberglass body which later carbon fiber body this beautiful mold and a lot of work going on there. But yeah, guys are built that vehicle and then Cameron steel and desert assassins were in charge of running it down in Baja. So that's an effort where I first got involved with Ford Racing. I went down there we had a bunch of drivers Cameron, myself Jason shear Shelby Hall, Rod Hall's granddaughter, currently Duke Johnny Campbell, who was pretty, pretty amazing guy. He's done a lot down there. Oh and Steve Auguste Steve August's is a trophy truck guy and owns team Ford out of Vegas and I would highly suggest him if you want to go buy a bronco Yeah, all I guess Ford there in Las Vegas. Yep. You almost named like it almost sounds like an offer to Hall of Fame list there. It It was totally out of shape. Why I think we needed something like 21 fire seats. By the time it's all said and done. Oh, that's amazing. And honestly, you know, we didn't finish the race and it bums me out. And there's a lot of little things that happened. It was wet down there that year too. You get it you get these fluke deals that happen I mean, in in my stage has taken it through the mountains and we there's a three seater. This is the first year so is a three seater. And what happened? Well, Steve, all his said, gotten into something and ripped up part of the skidplate. So they handed it off to me. And I caught the skid plate on something else. I got stuck in this muddy awful Creek and had to get a little tug back. So then this is up above Mike Sky Ranch. And then I'm coming down out of there and you could hear the skid plate hidden. And I'm thinking hey, it's no problem because it's just gonna bend the skid plate back up and off we go. Well, it ended up being somehow the front of the skid plate. bent down. And so it was getting worse and worse. And finally it folded all the way over itself up behind the transmission transfer case, into the drive shaft and transmission lines, cut the transmission lines. So so we're out there in the middle of the night. I mean, his pitch dark, we had to stop in this Oak Grove. And the transmission isn't really serviceable. It doesn't have a dipstick. So you know, it's a modern vehicle. And so what it does have is a plug that you can undo, but we couldn't find it because the whole thing was covered in mud. And finally, anyway, we found it and we found a way to bypass the lines. But we needed a way to fill the transmission because it's way down there. You know, it'd be like, imagine where the dipstick goes in on a transmission. It was like that, but there was no long extension. And we didn't have a funnel. So we're thinking we're thinking and finally, you know, super bright for an engineer says, Hey, Brad, use your catheter. So I had to peel my catheter off, and we use my catheter to fill the transmission, sealed it up and get on down the road. But what an amazing triage story. I got to hand it to him because I was trying to make a funnel out of duct tape or gorilla tape and I couldn't get it. So yeah, that was awesome. But boy, I sure remember it being dark and one truck stop, see if we're all right. And then he started going again and pushed off the road. And then we had to get him unstuck is is one of those baja nights, you know, everything's wacko. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, I picture like the scene from like Apollo 13. where, you know, it's like, Gary Sinise plays the astronaut that doesn't go up and they're like, Okay, this is all they have. And he goes through all the scenarios. That's the Ford engineer going, Hey, they got a race catheter. Hey, Brad. peel that off. You said, exactly. So But hey, awesome idea. It worked great. It took a little time. But whatever. Well, I love it. Well, so let's jump back. Let's jump all the way back to Brad leveling growing up. And so you're from Colorado Springs area, you live there. Now you and your wife and you've got a you got a bunch of boys, a message of, you know, something that I've I always loved about your program was, you know, your mother was at every race and then, you know, I don't I don't know what you call judge. Judge stepfather is what? Yeah. And they were at everything. You had this amazing support. You know, I love my dad, my dad won't come braces though. And then my wife is like, I just don't do offroad to begin with. So you know, when for offered for me. It's you know, it's a kind of a solo affair, versus you. It's always this big family family event. And this year on your finish when you came across the finish line hammer King had done a, you know, a really, really nice video about your mom. And I'm sorry about you know, that you've, you've lost both of them and in, you know, in less than six months. Very sorry for your losses. Oh, thank you. I found that the levels and level brother race, you guys have this. It's this family affair for you guys. And that's not for everybody. I can't say that I've cried on the podium before but it was really touching to have rob my brother there and and see her picture up on the big screen that that was that was pretty emotional. And, and I was certainly thinking about her during the race. We didn't talk about it. But I know that that Roger was too. And it was it's been tough. She her and my stepdad Judd have lived with us for the last couple years and my mom developed dementia and dementia is a tough thing to deal with. And finally it It took her on the 12th of January so and it didn't make it any easier getting ready for King of the hammers or are trying to figure some of that out but i i know that she would she would have wanted us to go and and my stepdad Judd still wanted to go and it wasn't at all the right decision for him. But he was bound and determined. You know, he's following us around the whole country with my mom in a pickup in a fifth wheel and he was ready to load up his pickup and fifth wheel and follow us out and I we just we couldn't do it. We just couldn't make it work for him. But he he passed away a couple weeks ago here now from from cancer. So it's a it's the end of an era for our team. Obviously in it. It sucks and one of my friends at AMS Oh sit at the best that has the chance to start a newer. He's right. But I don't know and you know, you you get through it. It's okay. day to day. But I think what I keep trying to tell myself is you have to take it slow enough to deal with it year over year and think about how it really affects things because it they did go to so many other races with us so many short course races and they towed to North Carolina, they'd towed a Michigan and King of the hammers and go to everything. We couldn't talk them out of it, even if this bad idea, which does bring me to a maybe a little lighter story, but I think maybe they know they, they went to pick up JT in Charlotte, North Carolina, one year for a torque race down there. So they went to the airport to pick up JT and then we had another crew member flying in a couple hours later. So what does JT do says, hey, let's go get a beer. So they take off and they find JT finds a local bar on his on his phone there and they they walk into the bar without realizing it was called the tool shed or something like that, and took one look in there. And it wasn't the right kind of bar for them. So they just turned around and walked right on out. Oh, yeah. JT is one of the few people who've been to a gay bar with my mom. I guess. That's Jake, he's people that he sniffed it out to that he's gonna hear this and he's gonna give us the knife edge, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, my involvement with you guys, JT is who got me, you know, introduced us and I came up to a couple short course races and helped you guys and really got to know you know, your mom and dad really, really well. And john always had his camera, he was always taking pictures, everything your mom was always trying to feed everybody, making sure everyone was comfortable and fed and nourished and are hydrated. And then Judd was there right there with the camera taking a picture. So you guys have always had this, you know, in house media for forever. And I I miss it, you know, we go out to the races now and it's like he's doing food cuz I don't, I don't do food. I'm sorry, I don't do it. So we got it. You know, it's always a struggle to figure out who's gonna throw themselves on the, on the coals there and worry about food for our team. But it's it's been a lot of fun over the over the years racing with JT we used to race against him and then for a lot of years before he got involved with ultra for he was part of the short course team, you know, spotter and crew chief and really did a lot for us. And those are, those are, those are all fun times. It's, you know, it's the another era. But we did eight years a short course between pro lite and pro two and had a lot of fun doing it. We're gonna get we're still gonna get there. That's, that's a whole that gets a couple chapters of its own. So yeah, so you guys, you grown up in Colorado Springs, you and your your brother, Roger, and then at what point? Did you guys both You mean, you had a ranger? He had a bronco, too. And you guys of course be in Colorado, you guys got to exploring is that kind of what the insert is and how you guys end up it? You know, adventure some because I know you guys have done some trade that you'll have to describe this or explain this here in a little bit. Or now even you guys drove from like one side of the state to the west side of the state without doing pavement and some stuff a couple times. Yeah. So the thing growing up, I can remember being a kid and watching the Baja 1000 and thinking, Oh, that's what I want to do. That's for me. But my dad was a stockbroker. And my mom stayed at home to raise us and it never felt like it was something that was ever an option. You know, it just is like, hey, that's that's not for me. That's not my wife. And we go camping as a family in the mountains, and we had an 88 start in 83 Bronco, and then an 88 Bronco. And we go bounce around in the back of that and then we always want my dad to go further and try harder and he had you know, he was he was smarter than us so he never wanted to go too far. But what he did is he left a drive within me and Roger to go further and go see things so he he got his Bronco to and he's 16 he still has it by the way he's I narrowed it solid axles everything in the world he can do to abraca two, it's awesome. And I got a I got a ranger three years later so then we go camping and my cousin mark and our buddy Dave, and we'd go wherever we could to go up to mines to try rougher roads to do stuff like that do Holy Cross here. That was a big deal on Mount Blanca and all these trails that would be easy for a more capable vehicle. Now it was a lot different back then. So eventually, I don't know we went to we started going to Moab. That was a big deal. I guess I was close when I was in college. They're gonna remember I went with one of my college buddies for the very first time. And we came around to the bottom of Moab rim and it was just he and I, you know, before you cross Devil's crack there or whatever it is you you kind of come around and there's a thin point and it's steep, it's right at the bottom. Well, like down in the parking lot I backed into a rock and cut my brake line. And it's a manual so I was up there and I pushed in the clutch and the brakes went to the floor, and I thought I was gonna die Why so I you know, is we did some trail fix and we got the heck out of there. But you know, that was my first experience for Moab. So I have a lot of respect for that that we went started pushing ourselves in Moab and I was right when I graduated college, so I certainly didn't do this stuff. When I was young. I went to my very first rock crawling competition. I just, I took it I went to the University of Wyoming so I just took a trip all by myself. I wanted to screw around before I got a real job. And I went out through Wyoming and all down through Utah and all the back roads and saw the national parks and timed it. So I showed up at Cedar City at a rock crawl. And I remember thinking this is for me, this is what I need to be doing. So I drug Roger and Dave and mark down to the first I think it was the first Super crawl down in Farmington Okay, maybe this first or second i think is the first one but but Walker Evans is down there and all the big guys were down there. And I remember telling us like look, we can do this we can beat these guys come on, and everybody's dragging their feet. But long story short, we bought a Dana 60 front axle off of Craigslist leaving town out of Farmington. And that was the beginning of the end for my daily driver because we turned it into competition Rock Crawler, and and then I scrounge some money together and and bought a 2002 F 250 to tow it. So you know it's it's important to me not to to lose my but racing and we started we invested about five grand and the Ranger we got I you know, PSC was the very first company that wanted to work with me and wanted to like, hey, we'll give you a discount. It's like, Oh, this is awesome. So we really started with kind of a small investment and a lot of sweat equity and went out to the very first race the very first rock crawl and i i bet people remember this one is down in St. George, who was right when you rock and ARCA came together, and they were going to have this big extravaganza down there in St. George. And it was a total cluster. And that was our first event and everything was messed up. I remember driving down this course. It wasn't wasn't any big deal. Why but I was so messed up about competing in front of people or standing on the brake pedal so hard in driving through in my you know, the gas, my left foot started shaking and trembling. I couldn't hold the brake enough. Well, that was like one of the courses that we finished another one we just actually is my very first one. I noticed into got stuck, didn't even get the back we'll see the start date is timed out. And then I is later that day or the next day. We're trying to climb up on this big cliff and Rogers up there pulling on the toe strap. I ended up going over backwards and he got flung off the rock broke his fingers. So my cousin Mark had to step in he he came in, in this this course with cones everywhere. Well, he he got up there and accidentally kicked over like three cones. And then I drove over another one. So we're done with that course. But as it worked out, they you know, they were only able to score two courses that day or something. And we ended up winning the event. I was like how the hell that happened. So we won that event. We won. When was the rest of the events that season and got second at Supercross that year so it was one of the one was that like oh 4030404 got it. I know. It seems like a very I mean, it is a really long time ago that 17 years, just for those keeping metalia at home. But when we went from like oh four from that to you got your in a unit flashed up with torch mate somewhere along the path and end up in a 7200 truck racing with Bill Coons shortly thereafter, I mean, how did it Yeah, we're just getting once again. It's all part of the story. And I just saw that bill just bought back the twin traction beam car from JT which is is kind of exciting. So is that is that is that publicly out there? I mean, it's gonna be probably up there on this airs But well, I I've read it on Facebook. So okay, so good. Okay, saying it. But, um, so we, you know, I guess I got to talk about torch mate, I got to talk about the fact I quit my job in 2006. You know, it's like holy cow in 2004. We figured we could make some money doing this rock crawl and stuff. And all we had to do is just Roger and I and my mom and I enjoyed for that matter going out to races here. And there, really, it was cheap, you could win some money, and he could get some sponsors. And so we kind of piddle along eventually, we got a little sponsorship here and there for some cash. It's like, wow, we got we got it made. And then I really, I feel like I kind of landed the whale. We got a sponsorship from fabtech that was kind of a big deal. That was enough, has enough money to get us in trouble, I guess. But that was around the time of our Ford Association and things are really going great. And you know, I, I got married, and then it's time to have kids and holy cow, we're pregnant with twins, you know. So I was in this point where I'm going to be a dad. And that takes time. And and I have a career job. And I want to go racing. And it was not easy for me by any means. But Natalie supported me to quit my job and go racing. And I think that's where I, you know, you ask who inspires me the most, and it's my wife, and then she's given me so much opportunity. But well, there's a lot to unpack there. There's lots of how did how did you and Natalie meet. That's actually it, I was doing a subdivision review for the city like reviewing all this infrastructure that goes in and, and she worked out at the airport. So I had to, you know, there's all these intergovernmental agreements, and it's like, Brad go out there to the airport, they're doing something just kind of rubber stamp it? Well, I saw Natalie out there and kind of get to know her. And she's managing the project and everything. It's like, Yeah, I don't know, let's see, I'm gonna have to be pretty involved in this project. Right? Like, I want to know her. So so you graduate from University of Wyoming, you you're an engineer by trade. And so you actually, when you graduate, you actually are one of those guys actually got a job doing what you went to school for? I did, yeah, I actually, you know, Roger, and I get the same degree, one, same school. And for a while we were working at the same place designing precast concrete buildings, like a lot of parking garages are precast. But it's all stuff that's developed in a yard, and then gets shipped to wherever it's going. And it gets welded together. But at that point, where is all two dimensional CAD, so it was really like putting all these puzzles together, doing the design work. And then engineering it your engineering welds and plate thicknesses and rebar sizes and stuff like that. So yeah, I did that for a few years, and then our dad passed away. And that was around 2000. And, you know, I just, I got the bug that life is too short. So at that point, I actually quit my job. And I went to quite a lot of things, apparently, why I quit my job. And I went to Australia, and I bought a 1978, Land Rover, and I drove across the whole country, continent, whatever you want to call it. And I think that, that, that kind of get my head a little bit straight about what I wanted to do. So, you know, there's there's Matthew McConaughey just put out his book called green lights. And, and I've listened to enough I'm not a good reader, I listened to things. And he did like a year in Australia as like an exchange student, and what Australia did for him and helped him get his head on right and settle him down. And goal orient him basically just reset the compass back to a true north. Sounds very similar. What it taught me is you have to follow your your passion, you have to follow what you care about and your pride. And you can't cheat yourself, you're just not going to be happy. And sometimes you're your own path that might not be the easiest path or the most profitable path. But if you love doing what you're doing, you're going to be alright, so you went on walk about going on a walkabout and I I bought that thing for maybe three grand and sold it for for a couple 1000 I one point I stopped just out in the middle of I mean, absolutely nowhere, and I drove about a mile off the road and I just camped all by myself, which it sounds easy to talk about, but man it's different when you're a kid and you're all by yourself and I want to challenge myself and I really wanted me and I wanted to do so many the long distance tracks out there, but you have to like helicopter and fuel and stuff like that. So I did some of them saw some amazing stuff and and when I got back I that's when I ended up getting the job of the city and there's all right, it's good money at the time. allowed me to do what I wanted to do which was which is go rock crawling. And and we go on a bunch of fun trips back then like, you know so many enthusiasts do now. And then so you meet Natalie. You guys have of course now been married for it seems like forever but it's not forever. Yeah, well I met Natalie when I was building our first Ranger, you know, the, the one that kind of started at all which is still running around out there. Yeah. And and we got married and then I was rock crawling for a little bit and thinking I was busy. Which boy, it sure seems simple now. But yeah, we're doing the Yurok series did some we rock and we're, we're winning races and we're making money doing it. And if it wasn't for rock crawling, there's no way that we'd have a Motorsports team today because it's so hard to get into. And so hard to get out of. But yeah, started doing that. And then reached the point where, you know, we had an all right sponsorship with fabtech. And it's like, look, I think I can quit my job and make a go at this. So the the day the kids were born, I quit my job. And off I go to be a professional racer, and, and it's certainly been the most rewarding. And it's also been the hardest time in my life for sure. I mean, not not making money worrying about paying the mortgage. With time with deadlines, you know, races don't wait. You can you can push the project off, but races don't wait. So you have to be ready. You gotta be ready for the green flag. So your two boys out of them by him? How old are they now? 14. Now they're 14. So they're almost 15. So that's 15 years ago, that did I quit and they're, they're their little bandits. We just built a new shop here. We've got it functional around the end of last year. I think they're both out right now welding on a cage for a UTV prerunner we're doing. So they, they very much they love working in the shop. They like being around it. But one thing that that I've kind of been pretty staunch about is I don't want or need to raise mirror images of myself and I so I you know, early on, everybody said Oh, they're gonna race they're gonna race. Well, I sure I want him to race. But what I really want him to do is is fine what I found, which is something that I'm absolutely passionate about. And I have pride in the fact that it's been built by Roger and I'm in our family. So I don't I don't want to just hand him or set them up to be predestined racers. I'd love to use the the cars we have or the contacts we have to help them along. But ultimately they need to find what's what in life is going to drive them. I think that's the most insightful words I've heard from anyone in a long time is that yeah, i i'd love it. If my son was wanting to be racer, he doesn't. He liked that he has no interest. It's it's, it's crazy. And I've told this story numerous times, you know, we we went up to Midlothian to textbooks race and he's got both of the the Miller boys you know, you know, Hunter and his brother and and Kyle cheney was there and Dustin Jones and Kyle Hart, Marty Hart son, Uriel these these are the you know, the the 20 somethings, sorry, I'm throwing the Millers into your 20s are in their 30s. But you know, these are the guys that are you know, their factory cannamd drivers are their national champions. This is like the best kind of the best of the best in UTV racing right now. And my boy West, he's standing right there with them. And they're like, Hey, we're gonna get you in one of these. And he's like, he's like, no, I play baseball. And I equate it to be like, if he was you're invited to like a quarterback camp and it's like Tom Brady and, and company and mahomes standing around and they look at they look at my boy was like, hey, you'd be a quarterback. And I'm like, Nah, man, I like doing this. You know, the, like I said, I think you got to follow your own path. And for me, I didn't my first Rock Crawler is 26 years old and I I love racing. But I you know, there's more to life than just racing, I think and it's it's certainly been my passion and been what I'm about. But also when I'm done racing, I'm gonna go right back to off roading recreationally and exploring and you brought up the non event or whatever you want to call it that we've done a couple of times, which is the amsoil expedition Colorado and that that started out because we had a stacker trailer going out to all the short course races and we had a UTV with the top chopped off to use a pit vehicle and it just after a while It struck me it's like Why? Why are we taking a UTV out? I love Willys jeeps. So it's like we could get a Willys roll down or fold down the windshield, put on top of the stacker, and you have the same thing and it's street legal. So we can go out to dinner, we can get away from the track, do whatever. So I found it took a lot of looking but I found a 43 Willys MB that came out of the museum here, there's in pretty good shape, boys, and I rebuilt the motor and went through everything on it. So then we had that and boy, it sure was fun out of CRAN. And we could go exploring and do all kinds of stuff. And then we figured, wouldn't it be cool to drive across the Rocky Mountains or go to Moab or something and take that Jeep, and the safest way to do it is taking it on on all the back passes and, and remote roads. And that kind of goes back to like a kid when I was camping. I always wanted to see what's over the next pass what's over the horizon. So we got on Google Earth and laid out a route and look for absolutely as much dirt as we could find and the hardest passes and all this stuff. So Roger, and myself and Jake, who worked with us, just is just a handful of us and we we just set off the idea being you know, you're trying to rewind life you're trying to find challenge close to home. This bar has a long ways away, it costs a lot of money. And there is adventure close to home. So I didn't purposely I didn't do a whole bunch of research or anything beforehand. But I did have a route. Well, it's surprising how many roads you can see from an airplane or on Google Earth that are closed or gated or private or I still don't know why it but God we hit so many gates and so many issues. So we'd have to turn around find another route go around the gate. And it came to total fruition when we got on pro pass pretty much the highest point and it was just flat out snowed off. So we had to go all in. It's like you get days behind. It's crazy. But we did make it to Moab. We got to Moab. And we finally set up camp and as I call man, we made it we're camping up on sand flats. And we were watching this storm roll roll by and I remember telling everybody it was to the east. Everything goes from west to east out here. Don't worry about it. No is coming our way in it. Just I'm in a torrential rain drowned out our camp, and it got dark. And we were absolutely soaked. The only place we can think of going is grandpa's garage. So we go to grandpa's garage. And you know after this trip I'll never forget because there's we were sitting there shivering and there was one piece of cardboard in a loft and we're fighting over the cardboard who gets sleep on the cardboard kids curled up in the loft. I slept on concrete that night that but what a trip. So we've we've done that when we came back from Moab to Colorado Springs. And on that particular trip, I lost the starter gear like 10 miles in and that Jeep vapor locks all the time. So that one was hard fought. And then we did one going from Grand Junction all the way up around through Moab down through the San Juan's to Lake City. So it's been a lot of fun. And I think we'll probably put something together this summer. What reminds me of you know, like these expedition off roads or that are going on, I bet you can get people to follow you. Yeah. But so the whole the whole thought here is that, get out and do it yourself. You know, there's, there's adventure. Like, again, if you look back to what I was talking about in Australia, you know, driving across Australia is a lot different when you're alone in an old vehicle camping by yourself than it is in a group. So that's kind of something we wanted to push about expedition Colorado says, Hey, here's the route, go off and do it. And then, you know, the last time we did, it's kind of like a scavenger hunt. It really got people out. But I think there's so much adventure to be had and just getting out and seeing some of these things in a small group or by yourself versus a big trail ride, you know, well, yeah, I think anytime you can get your your kids involved and get them off, you know, off the couch off the video games out the door in the shop, I noticed, you know, social media is certainly jaded to being all positive all the time. And so you know, it's not always it's not always roses, even though people may representative presented as roses. But yeah, you know, I always see your boys are in the shop and I think it's for me and it's what I see out of my son and you know, I do have a daughter who is very, very, very creative. But when you see them create something out there. You got you get this little, I guess window into their mind of how they think and how they process issues. And you're like, Am I doing it right like you're hesitant to say that Knock on wood, you know, you're not gonna live here, but you kind of like, wow, um, they thought about that, or they've taken that into consideration. And they're becoming their own little people and they're become their own humans and they have their own their own drive. And, you know, mean, you try to tilt the playing field in their favor as much as possible. But at the same time, they still have to walk across that playing field. Yeah, well, that's, that's a smart way to put it. And I, I definitely feel fortunate that we have a shop, you know, for a while, we had a smaller shop at our last house and employees running in and out of there, and there really wasn't much room for the kids to do what they wanted to do. And so, during COVID, we, we bought a house a little bit before that, and had to shut down the shop for a little bit. But right when COVID hit about a year ago, we started building a new shop, and we got an awesome shop now that has space for the kids to spread out and do what they want to do. And I, I can see their expression through what they do, but also how they drive and that's what has been really exciting to me, is just watching them drive it's a window into their soul. And you can see where they're confident where they're not where they're questioning. So that's it's been a lot of fun. We, over the past couple years, we've raised the bar 500 in a Polaris in the stock class, we, you know, I don't have a need to be highfalutin, I guess and there's nothing wrong with going out and racing a stock vehicle. And that's where I think these guys should start. And both years we raced with Roger and his son Parker and my two boys and rotating them through the car. And it's it's just been quite an adventure night. I don't know, is it gonna be this year again? I don't know. We'll see. I it's hard to keep all these mechanical bits moving, you know, right. Yeah, I mean, but it's so cool to be able to do that and share to be able to share baja with your kids, I think is amazing how you guys are doing it. So you mentioned you brought in your new house grab a new one in the past year and is she still this very project oriented? She picks out something and she just wears you wears you down with landscaping or the repaint or adding a room or is she still Yeah, same Natalie apparently you've seen her Facebook page but she you know, I spend a lot of time on the road and racing takes a lot of time. And she is not willing to let life or project slow down around the house. So yeah, I've left and and we got a pond in the backyard or one time is hot. Or we got a I don't know a detached patio, new gardens pop up. So she buys trees like their Tic Tac. Plants need trees and but all in all, I can't complain too much. Because that gets those projects done. Why? Yeah, the knockout. You're like, hey, look what Yeah, Merry Christmas to be. Yeah. So I wanted to kind of you know, jump back in the chronological of racing with you. So 15 years ago, you know, you quit the nine to five grind or whatever, but you didn't I mean, you guys were already working around the clock. If you weren't at work for somebody, you were home, working on your cars, building race cars, you know, competing and then different genres are running across you guys in zarei. I brought up the bill Coons deal with a 7200 truck I remember running into you guys in that truck. in Vegas one year I don't remember if it was maybe a minute maybe maybe it was meant maybe it was also Vegas Reno it was numerous times running into you guys that the black truck and then you guys were you and your brother had matching twin Twinkie race cars. They were the same chassis now. One of them died. In what year 2010. Roger bear rolled it at Pikes Peak. Yeah, in practice, and it wasn't even, you know, competition day. This was like it was practice. He came around. It was a sweeping right hander. And then just the rear washed out. Yeah, so I guess to reflect on all that a little bit, you know, 2008 2009, the the economy obviously took a nosedive and it affected off road as much as anybody with the housing crisis and all that business and we're sucking wind. So I I didn't know what the future held and I went and worked a construction job for one of our sponsors and partners for a few months and and had the good fortune of getting involved in torch mate. And while everybody else was kind of hurting with the economy torch mate had these awesome new plasma tables that were actually affordable. They weren't $100,000 pieces of equipment. There's something you could get in your shop and really looking for some presence in off road. So worked with Bill on on the race team kind of managing the race team and riding with him in that seven truck and we had a lot of good times in that truck running the best in the desert series, we actually, I think is oh nine, we ended up second place on championship points. And Bill was actually my co driver in 2010 when we were 28 seconds out of the win for King of the hammers. A lot of fun there and then eventually torch mate got bought up by Lincoln Electric. And that's what took Jeff Knoll, Jeff Knoll was involved with that program and kicking the hammers, obviously, those who've been around kicking the hammers for a long time will remember torch mate. They brought tables CNC tables out there, they're cutting parks for everybody. So Jeff is actually working with Lincoln Electric now. And Bill walked away to Montana where he always wanted to go. And like I say, it's kind of interesting. I just saw he gets some shop space in a race car. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. There is part of all that. And another awesome guy that was part of the torch mate team was Nick Sosa. Right, you're right. Yeah. And, again, those have been around for a while can remember Nick's great spotter, and he had a vehicle rollover on top of him. In one of the you rock rock crawls, I think it was in Salt Lake City, and he got hurt really bad. And the whole off road community came together and did a raffle to help raise money for him. And so we bought a bunch of tickets and lo and behold, won a chassis. So we went out, we went out got the chassis and that chassis is eventually did a lot of changes to it. A lot of work on it. But that's what ended up being Rogers Ranger. So it was kind of it ended up really being an excuse to build another car. So we put that together and then you're remembering the year which boy maybe it was 2010 where it miles four guys. Yeah, it came out to run Pikes Peak hill climb. Well, I remember the road that David Dave had everybody or Dave and Jeff had everyone run lands and lands in was a points race or something along that and that was Grand Junction. And that seemed to be every nobody had a we all had idiot lights. Right? And how many people blue motors like I think Jesse Haynes blue motor Ben Napier blue motor. There's a lot of motors got eaten, you know, climbing up a mountain. Yep, indeed. But I, you know, you know how it's been with ultra for it's been, you know, we're out to conquer the world. So and that's why, you know, that's why I recently Crandon that's why we're doing all these different events, because we, you know, we're out to conquer the world. And part of that was doing Pikes Peak. So, gosh, who all was was there that year? I know. I think Dave Cole was running his car and JT and Roger Yoder. Oh, god, they're Peterson. Yeah, Yoda was there. Anyway, they're handful of guys. And I was I was racing the pro like that that year, when it was actually during the race. And I was sitting in staging and I watched Roger go, and then they they sent another car, and then they held up the order. An ambulance goes up, and I'm thinking oh, my God, in it. You don't you know, you're sitting in a car, you can only do so much and is forever. And finally they brought him back down. And I saw him get out and hug his wife and his kid. And, and he came back to the car and told me so it's alright, just go talk about it later. Well, I ran up. And at that point, I'm thinking I'm not gonna do anything crazy, because I knew something bad happens. And in a lot of times, I think, you know, one bad thing happens. Another one's coming. So and I had a good run up, I think it was a 1215 which seems pretty slow compared to the standards today when it's all paved, but sure felt like I was hauling button that prolight. So I get up top and then you sit up top for the rest of the day. And the only place I can get cell phone coverage is hike way down over the side. So I called and figured out kind of what happened and he had gotten a little loose in a turn and they put shotcrete in the ditches to line the ditches for erosion and stuff. And he caught a tire on that shotcrete in the ditch and it just launched him in, rip the whole sidewall out of the tire and he ended up rolling straight down the pavement. The way it swapped up, just destroyed the car. So we brought that one home and took it apart. And there you so I wasn't sure that if you were running that prolight we're gonna go into how you ended up in pearlite in short course here in a second but so you're running the pro light and what I didn't remember that it was the same year at this point. But what I do remember and I'm sure it's still out there on YouTube, is you ran my career. We call it the dick cam, you know This long, long pipe that sticks out the back of the car, you ran it in practice off of the prolight. So you got this video game view, you know, like, it's like third person video game view looking down over the hood over the roof. And you're going up pikes and pikes when you get above the treeline, and you have the will, there's two kinds of turns, right, there's an outside turn an inside turn, and which side of the mountains on so this is an outside turn. And you can't I mean, the GoPro is catching nothing but 3000 feet down on one right side. And you're, you know, you can hear the murders. As you're shifting up shifting through this, it's like, wow, you know, one more, two more inches over to the right. And you're, you're, you know, you're gonna need wings? Well, it definitely I put that together because you have a chance to practice the bottom third, middle third and upper third. And it's like, Hey, I'm gonna, I only had one GoPro, but it's like, they'd let you run a boom or whatever in practice. So I kept changing camera views and getting all this stuff before race day and you have a day off or something before race day. It's a brutal week, because you have to get up so early to go up there and practice and why I remember looking at the exact footage that you're talking about. And I thought, oh my god, what am I doing? You know, because it doesn't look that way when you're in the driver's seat. But you get that view from up high and wide angle lens and it's like, Good God. So yeah, I shouldn't have watched that video before race day. But I did that race twice. And it was a lot of fun. I was all geared up to do it. The third year, I got, you know, full blown BFG race slicks and alcohol carb and had all the fuel purchased. And in really, you know, I had more time. It was always like the week after Crandon, so I had to erase Crandon and deadhead home. And if you don't make all the practice days, you can't race and I think practice was Tuesday. I mean, it was brutal. But anyway, this year, there was time. And then we had we had some big fires around here is, you know, everybody is aware of I'm sure. And Pikes Peak move the date of the race. And it's always been on top of Crandon ever since this year, I guess which they moved it again because a COVID. So so that kind of I wasn't able to race the peak anymore. And now it's it's getting really crazy, because it's it's all tarmac and I worry at some point when it's going to be slow or snow or water up top. And people are running slicks and and launch off that road, but it's always a spectacle. It's a pretty cool race to have locally. Yeah, I know. That's a big, you know, there's, you know, some some big fighting about that, you know, that, you know, the old records were suddenly records when the road was still dirt and gravel on the upper sections, or even still in the middle sections. And then now it's, it's paved the whole way. So how do you I mean, the right question, you're this rock guy, you're doing you rock sports. And we knew about short course we'd seen short course which is same as all of a sudden seen trophy trucks. You go out and get a pro lite and that's the next level for you. And you start racing pro like what made you make that jumper? How did that how did that jump happen? And then let's talk about your your career is short course driver over the past 10 years. It certainly didn't happen fast. I think 2010 might have been our i think is 2010 was our first year. And in 2007, we went out to out to prim the track out there. So we flew out to Vegas, my wife and Roger and I because I wanted to get into short course bad I didn't want to go racing, you know, and this is the hot stuff. And that's, you know, the pinnacle of off road. And we ran out there and ran right up to the fence and watch the car coming around and say yeah, this is awesome. And then we just got roosted with all the the marvels and everything. So you learn lessons quick, and that was the same race in the video is still out there. But Rick Huisman, a fabtech teammate of mine, those guys have done an awful lot to help out our program early on, but he he was running his pro for across the whip section. And he hit some whoops wrong. And he did a double front flip and landed on the wheels enrolled off the course and it was right about the time I saw that. I said, I don't think I'm ready for short course yet. It took three years but what I really owe it to is amsoil amsoil has always been a big supporter of grassroots Motorsports and professional Motorsports, especially in the Midwest, and they were very much entrenched in the torque series. And we got really lucky in the fact that Chad horde was moving up to pro two and They were looking for a pro driver. And I kept asking and asking, and I know it, it bothered a lot of people that were in this sport already, they felt like amsoil should have looked within the sport, but they they look to me and, and I'm still really thankful for that. So we bought a chassis and we put it together and went out and, and ran Crandon that was the first race. And it was, it was very humbling, because you got to understand why we were pretty, pretty dominant in rock crawling. In all the years, I can remember one event or two events, there's a super crawl where we better run the motor. And there was an event down in Houston where we just had a crappy event and we got to 11th. And outside of that, we're pretty much on the podium, every event so here I am sitting in my pro life thinking about how great a racecar driver I am. And take off in my first race. Go through turn one get halfway through turn to tap a truck break a tie rod, my race is done. I'm thinking oh my god, this is awful, you know. So that was spring crane. And that was the first race. The last race of that year. JT came out to help us probably first race JT came out to help with and Rain Rain, rain, no chance to go out and practice nothing. And by that point, I realized that I needed some help. So I got I've got myself a racecar driver self help book. You know, one of the I can't remember who wrote it, but talking about race craft. And one of the big pieces of advice is anytime you're in a race car, drive it like a race car, you know, drive it to the limit, don't screw around, and don't get comfortable driving that thing at half throttle. So, okay, so I soak that up. So we had one parade lap, before we go around in line up for the race. What do you do? I throw it into the argon turn a little bit hard, and I roll onto the lid. And so to this day, I think well I'm one of two guys who've rolled on a on a parade lap but so I'm upside down and I'm pretty sure there's fuel draining into the roof out of the car. And and they come over and pull me pull me back over and the hoods all messed up. And you know, I'm wild eyed because I you know how it is with ultra for folks. I mean, we're we're going this one thing I believe about ultra for is you never quit, you keep going. So I'm not going to quit. So I pull up to the line and JT is there with a saws all they had time to get us off. And he's trying to hack the hood off and cut it off. And they're getting ready to throw the green. And I remember JC is pulling the last bit of hood off in the track workers literally pulling JT off. So bang flag gets thrown and I actually I had a fairly good race going, I was in the upper third of the pack, and ended up it was like a couple turns left ran out of fuel, because the fuel drained out of the car into the roof. And that was the end of the season. And I thought for sure I'm done. I spent all this money on this pro line, I'm gonna get fired and amsoil had the longer vision I guess. And we got a deal the next year, which you know, led into a relationship with Nissan and, and some good backing and some good advice. And we want a championship that year and it was hard fought championship, I mean write down tooth and nail. And that's definitely one of the most rewarding championships have had that pro at one you garnered, you know, one respect to you know, just the amount of knowledge that you gained from you know, just the little bit of time you you're there in a in pro life moving up, but the relationships like I I know, I can walk up to Scott Douglas today. And he's like Mr. amsoil. And I only know him because of you. So, and he comes up to King of the hammers. I don't remember seeing him this year, but I saw him last year standing around kind of by the by the actually by the mainstage when you guys won last year. Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, so much of what's been rewarding for me is you have all these heroes that that you look up to in motorsports and getting to meet them and and then maybe getting to develop relationships with them that there's mutual respect, and that's certainly been true with with Scott Douglas. And you know that you know how it is we're all fighting but we're fighting together and Scott for a couple years. Let us just go work out of his shop out there in Wisconsin to avoid the long drive home. So the boys have many hours out in the shop there and we camp out here this this awesome building that used to they used to build lock homes out of so we had a house right there. We'd camp out and, and had a lot of good times. So since then he's been coming out to King of the hammers with amsoil. And, and you might have missed him there. He's probably a little incognito. But he was out there running around this year. So it's great to to not only rub elbows with with heroes like that, that I've looked up to, but just be able to really consider him a teammate. Yeah, he's, I mean, there's so many great individuals like that. I remember. So JT gets, you know, I'm always I'm usually down for stuff except for going to Mexico. I'm really bad about that. JT, as we talk about JT Taylor all the time. He's, you know, the, he's like my co host that he's not here right now. He will always be I think he's almost stopped asking me to get to Mexico, which is sad. Sorry, JT. Because I've told him no, so many times, but he's like, Hey, what do you got going this weekend? We're gonna be at XYZ short course race. You want to come? Yeah, man. So I remember I when I came to floresville, with you, definitely a Dallas race, maybe a couple of years. But I remember at one point, we're at the drivers meeting. I don't remember why you drunk why you guys drugged me along by Sit down. I'm sitting next to Ari lineback Jr. And he's on my left. You know, this guy's on The Bachelor, a year later, or six months later. And my wife is like, you know, thanks. Are you something else? And are you something else, but he's sitting next to me. And he folds, he crosses his legs. And his and he's wearing his jeans. His jeans have elastic cuffs on the bottom. And I'm looking across the USAC race trailer. You know, it's in this big 18 Wheeler trailer and the lounge and I'm looking over you and JT trying to get your attention like point and like the little finger. Like Who is this guy? I don't know, even if we get out there. And so he's, you know, that's our line dikes and our line. I'm like, Oh, I know who Alright, like my kids. Wow. I didn't know those. Those pants were in style. But hey, you wear goofy pants. You get called out one way or another? It doesn't matter. Right? Yeah, it's you're gonna get hit. So definitely good stuff with you guys in in. I know that that event itself was I want to say that was your first event with your pro two. And at this point, you had stepped up from pro life to pro two. So there's three classes right the pro lights the little guys that many trucks so to speak. Still pretty, pretty bad limited travel. And then you move up to the pro two which is basically an unlimited two wheel drive. And then the next the unlimited the big boys, the pro fours which is the unlimited for all drives. So you went from the pro lights, you build a pro to you unveil it. I think that was a Dallas or Texas or Yeah. And then you as a way to, you know, make ends meet. You know, you already have the race trainer space and the staff available and all that you have an arriving drive of Bobby Ryan Jr. and he has a prolight that guy's awesome. I still follow you know, on LinkedIn, his his father, Bob Runyan. Got a great guy Bob. Bob may live in California. He'll never listen to the show. I'm sure but But Bob Runyan. I do. We're connected on LinkedIn. I you know, at least once a week he has one of his posts on LinkedIn will be something I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I've been reading that or That's awesome. I hadn't caught that. And so I really see eye to eye with Bobby Runyon Junior's dad. He's a great guy. I only know because you absolutely but he Yeah, he's he's definitely got his his views. And and that was an awesome program and in the timing worked out, you know, it takes a ton of money to go racing and it kind of made sense that combined forces and boy at that time, we had had two full time guys running back and forth in the toder and then we got a second trailer and truck and we're a full blown Carnival out there on the road you know, we tow and all kinds of stuff all over the place. And it was a good program and he he's an ex karting champ and did pretty darn well in pro life and has since moved on from them. But it was fun looking back and what is crazy, because he always wanted different schemes on his truck, you know, and it was fun for me because I like designing the look of trucks and I but again, I'm not always gonna just change the look on my truck. So he was always wanting wacky stuff. Like at one point, he wanted a maze on his truck. Okay, so and I think, hey, it's gonna be badass, but it's not. It wasn't like anything repeatable or something you could print, it ended up being like, literally amaze. So I had to lay it all out by hand and then bake in spare parts for it. And we ended up we're still doing it at the race. And his mom comes over and says why you guys spending so much time on this? Well, it's you know, it takes time to lay out. She's like, Bobby, we're not doing the maze anymore. We need to be working on making this trek fast. So that was the end of that pattern but great folks. Yeah, they're they're good, folks. So you're in pro life, what made the step like you said was some like Scott Douglas moved up to pro four and you were able to, or what allowed for their spot to be available? The you go, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna build this pro to this seems like a big step, it's a big step. Why did we do it? That's a good question. It's it's wanting to go faster it's wanting to get that ride it's wanting to, you know, ultimately at the time I wanted to trophy track, you know, push it as far as we can absolutely push it in pro two is the next step there. What it turned out to be, it's hard. And when you get, you know, when you're doing spec racing, it's hard because people are doing a lot of little things to get around the spec rules. And, and that sucks. But when it's unlimited, it's unlimited. And for the spec, trophy truck stuff we're doing now that's a spec motor. But you know, we're competing against people with choppers and people with multiple trucks and full blown warehouses, they're prepping this stuff in. And the same is kind of true and pro two. So the thing with pro two, it's all about the horsepower and putting it to the ground. So you know, a lot of teams, you don't like 160 $1,000 engine, you go buy a $70,000 engine, and then you buy a backup engine. And it got to the point that we just couldn't keep up financially or you start to have to make sacrifices. And it was really frustrating going to the track knowing that maybe you're already a leg down because you just can't afford this stuff. Where you can't afford the test time is at that point, which maybe it's just maturing through a career, but I kind of decided I don't want a trophy truck anymore, right? I don't even want to race engine anymore. They're miserable things, they're super high dollar, and they need a ton of maintenance to keep running. So honestly, I think it was kind of a point in the sport where maybe that made sense for everybody. Because there, there wasn't the money coming in to support these astronomical engine bills. So that turned into a spec engine. And which I'm trying to turn remember what engine it was is a 427 or something. And by the time that engine got put in, it was a little bit detuned compared to these race engines. And those trucks were awesome. It went to a D o t tire. Also, so so much more balanced. We had better times and that spec engine and those do t tires, then with all this horsepower and trying to sort it out and get it tuned right and do race tires. So at that at that point, it got really, really fun again, and we Oh man, we had a great season going and we had a couple bad races. We had a water pump failure, Wyatt, that it was a new water pump that I put on because the old one was leaking and I think hey, we're really in it for the championship. So I got a new water pump from whatever supplier I don't even remember who and there was a bolt on the back cover plate that they hadn't tightened all the way and it blew out and it blew the head gaskets in it. So we DNF around we tore the engine down and put new head gaskets on it for the next day. And it blew the head gasket out again. So we DNF two rounds and ended up narrowly losing the Luke Johnson that year but again those are hard fought championships man that that one got away. Oh, that's rough. Now remember, you guys had the fort for guys out at one of the events and they were you know taking lots and lots of readings off of off of that motor the first time the one thing that I really found surprising which is once you're involved in and engrossed in you know embedded in it, it's not that surprising but from the outside showing up to it was the folders filled with tire grooving pictures of what grooves you know, using the hot iron to cut the tire for what the course was or what the track was to what the conditions were and how crazy that was and like you go like like Creighton King missed the old Mr. Max's I mean he'd be standing in you know there'd be like fire ant mounds of tire rubber grooves where he just stayed on there for hours on end just groove and tires for for guys to ensure that you know that tire slides correctly but also gives you the right amount of Ford might seems obvious. Yeah, it's it's an absolute art. And it's a huge investment in time. And we'd come out with dozens of tires mounted because maybe you do a groove and then the weather changes so you need to do another groove and BFG always had guys out there doing it the track I can remember being in the truck helmet it up and the tires are just showing up on our Hit cart, they slap them on the truck, and off I go, you know. And it's one thing to do a D o t tires, you can do a fair amount of work. But the full blown race tires that BFG had, it got to the point that they were showing up. And they're just slicks, there's no groove in there, they're they're literally laying out the whole traction pattern right there at the track. That's that's where the cost of short course kept escalating at the time again, and again, is kind of a tough time to be in the sport. But in my opinion, it kind of led to a slow collapse because the the sponsorship the marketing dollars coming in, even if they're private dollars, versus the amount of work that has to go into things at the track and prep work in between it got kind of imbalanced and and hopefully we'll see if we can get that corrected. Now. What do you think about the you know, ultra for is now you know, in the short course game with you know, Lucas exiting the short course, business in the West? And David company, you know, picking up what's now called the gas, the gas series. What's your coming from Your the one offer for Raisa that is a short course racer and has that pedigree at this point. You've got some championships under your belt in that world? What's your take on that move? I think it's a it's a tough nut to crack. Yeah. Dave, you know, Dave is is very good at making events work. And there's some other guys with some short course history. I think Adler, Greg Adler might be involved in pull variety. And out in the east. Frank D'Angelo and old BFG guy is pretty influential, or running the champ off road series out there. And so there's there's a lot of right minds, I think, but it's a tough, tough thing to crack Wyatt and I, I can remember Frank DeAngelo telling me back in the day when we're talking about, you know, hey, I need more support, why can I get this to work. And he says, you have to put the drivers First, you have to put the drivers first and you have to make it fun for them to come to an event. You can't put the crowds first or the track first or sponsors. It's got to be fun for the drivers and the rest of the things will fall into place. He's been involved with the the champ off road series out there this last year. And in even with COVID and stuff, they managed to pull off some events. And I think things are maybe heading in a better direction there. But what I think is it needs to start from the ground up again. There have to be classes that make sense. But But every time you come up with a new class, you exclude somebody, you give somebody new a new opportunity, and you screw up somebody else. So I I can't pretend to know how to navigate that. And I do think that it's a it's a great way to get out and go racing in a desert racing isn't for everybody. Ultra for has done a fantastic job of getting racing out of just the Southwest, the desert southwest and some of these woods races. And honestly, why I think you got to look to the new feeder of all this, which is utvs. And absolutely you TVs I think are something that maybe aren't as fun to watch race is a, you know, 800 horsepower, pro 4000 horsepower trophy truck. But that is the most accessible way to get involved with all this. So if you look to the drivers and give those classes a chance to run and help find ways, you know, you can't fake it. It's it's got to work for people to get up through the ranks into these entrenched race programs that take years to develop. And I think it can work and well here's the other big kicker is everybody's got to work together, Lucas and torque, there is a lot of bad blood back in the day, and it didn't help anybody. And it didn't help drivers. And quite honestly, the same thing goes on now with best in the desert and, and score. And, you know, we have a spec trophy truck. And you can run a couple different engines in there. Well, there's only one configuration from one builder that you can run in score, invest in the desert. And it's those types of things that in that class is really healthy, because there's because it's fun, it's awesome. But it's those types of types of things that are going to help classes when they're struggling a little bit. Well it boils down to and this is the people that clue in on this that, you know aren't in that world or in that genre, but they're into the ultra fours and they're under the king of hammers. What we saw the you know that desert Invitational weed the desert weekend, the first weekend of hammers week when the announcers are talking about The T ones and the T twos and the T threes. And it's like, okay, that's a trophy truck. And that's a spec trophy truck. That's a, you know, an unlimited, and then that's a 6100. You know, they are the same thing, but then we're having to call them something different. Because someone else has an AI and it's that type of stuff, where from the fandom side of it is like, really, you guys can't work together on this. This isn't? I don't know, it's it's frustrating, but I respect why they're protecting their naming, but I don't but it it takes something away. I mean, it's, it's ridiculous is the name of the vehicle, right? And it, I get it, but everybody needs to play nice together. And I think we all have to bend a little, I think, honestly, right now offroad Motorsports is pretty healthy, it's worries me that it might be a little too healthy with all the TVs that are getting sold during COVID to people that might have more money than brains out in the desert. But you know, it's, it's times like, you know, when, when short course, struggling to maintain, maintain teams, that the inability of the series to work together, just kind of hurts us, I think that's where, and I have no inside knowledge on it. And I think there are a lot of good brains involved now, but hopefully, they they work together to compliment each other, rather than, you know, take away from each other. Well, I actually hope that's actually what's going to happen here, we're gonna get some economies of scale between the gas deal and ultra for and, you know, maybe if, at some point with a majority vote in off road, that you get a start controlling and dictating kind of how those relationships work and how, and ultimately, how you get to address sponsors and marketing dollars and giving back to those guys more than they put into you. And give them you know, and that's that's ultimately how we're going to end up growing it. Because it takes dollars to make you know, the merry go round around and there's no dollars, then it's all private funds. And at some point, guys lose interest. You know, the, I've spent way too many dollars to go around this tracker does, you know, for my race car, sit in this shop being prepped for, you know, each race, as at some point they start walking away, which I mean, like looking at my wife, you know, we had a, you know, 100 ish 4400s razor King hammers, I saw the registration list had 24. So I hope you know, this past weekend, as you're listening to this that a whole bunch more people showed up then the 24 that are currently registered. Because that just just seems crazy. It seems you know that that seems to me, that seems one of the major problems that ultra four needs to solve is how to keep drivers engaged. For more the season, not just be you know, one and done in February. I agree why I would like to you know, we've long thought about building another truck for our trucks. Let's talk about your truck. Right now. Let's, let's talk about the 232 This is the time to do it. This chassis is 12 years old now. 13 years old now, I think. I think it's 14. So we you know, there's the 13 event, right? So 2007 we didn't do that. But in 2008 we debuted this vehicle at first king of hammers his first race. So we've we've done almost all of them. We've had successes and failures. When we built it, we built it with the idea that it's a rock crawler, but we saw king of the hammers look pretty awesome. So we designed another fuel cell that fit back there and a bumper and we really hadn't seen to kind of change things out and has that very first race it was Jeff Huisman and Rick Huisman and Dan Huisman, they're all out there, and they're gonna help us tune our shocks with fabtech. I had Jeff in the right seat, who is awesome prolight driver in a lot of people know but Jeff and Rick lost their lives in a small plane crash years ago. And it always makes me sad because they're right in the highlight of their life. But Jeff was riding right seat with me and I was going through the works like when you head out towards pit to keep saying Oh, you got to go a little faster. And all I'm thinking is no man, that's that's fast enough for me. And so he's like, Well, let me let me drive it let me take it and I saw him haul ass down there. It was like, oh my god. So then we told him it's like All right, you guys tune the suspension. We're gonna go pre routing. And they did a bunch to help us out but yeah, the we competed. I don't know lots of years. We're doing the unlimited race. Wyatt. We had a no we had a fifth one year we had that second in 2010. We we've blown up transmissions in the front diff and and had issues along the way. And then the the EMC race came around. So for the first few years, we were running both races. And we did pretty well we I know we won the 4800 class, the first time is around and we did real well in EMC and then one year, we broke the all the front bracketry off the axle. In the EMC race, of course, the big race is the next day. And well, you know, small world that Dan Huisman happened to be in the next fit. He said, Hey, if you cut all the pieces all welded up, so we're over there, band son and grind and doing everything do he patches up the whole bracketry on the front axle, which is still the same bracketry that's on there, by the way. And we ran the the big race the next day, we had a problem with the front diff of Baron went bad. And we ended up finishing We're in 17 spot we ended up finishing 11 minutes out of time. And that's when we figured you know what, forget this. We're gonna we're gonna just focus on the EMC race. So what was it? 16 and 17 I think we won in 19 we won this year we got second so the the vehicles still plenty competitive in that class. And I think like this year, I you know, I think we have the pace to when we have it figured out. But we just didn't go fast enough this year. You know, the other cars keep getting a little faster. So great, great run this year, you knows is a good race. Yeah, you've done a sting. I was standing there when you guys won last year. And anyone that listens to this, and you've probably heard me says the on the 4400 day I travel like so I'll catch the MC race. I won't catch the 4400 race. I'll watch it because the live the live shows so good. This is me plugging the altar for live show again. It's just that good. And it really really was that good this year. I enjoyed it from my couch in Texas with my hammer along. I was I was I was sick the entire next week. Like Yeah, and they thought I had you had the COVID No, I tested negative but uh, but yeah, I've never had a hammer loan before out of, you know, 10 years of going out there. I'd never had a problem with that. I think it was because I had to wear the mask. All the you know, as much as I did wear the mask. Um, I think that actually was my problem. But who knows, we'll never know. We'll never know I didn't die. That's the key. That's the key part. So yeah, that's it. You quit racing. The short course stuff, you know, you there's you know, that's that is racing. Right. You know, you figure out you know what bullets you have in the chamber and where you want to spend them and, and you end up moving over to 6100 you wanted a trophy truck. If you have for many years now, a unit with a spec trophy truck. Tell me about that world. You've been racing some best in the desert. You've been racing some score. It's a gorgeous truck, American flag livery. And you've had quite a bit of success in that truck too. Yeah, well, it's we we ended up selling everything we could have our short course equipment, and took that whole big old pile of money and gave it to a customer of geysers to buy a used geyser, trophy truck or spec trophy truck. I call it a trophy truck when I'm around people who aren't in the sport because it rolls rolls off your tongue a little easier. But those who No no. So this this was one that had been raised by smiley. And we got it we made some updates to it to it did a little work. And having all my newfound wisdom from my pro light days that you know, you're not going to just jump in it and go out there and win. We put a lot of miles on it before for our first race. And I G we took it out to the mint might have been our first race and then went down to San Felipe Bay. You know, the whole idea is we really want to hit all these different venues between bests in the desert and score. And well I can't tell you how much fun that track is to drive it. It is absolutely amazing. And you know, like in pro two, when you have that $60,000 bullet up there that you can put up in smoke and absolutely destroy. It's intimidating. hearing it wine and at 600 rpm. I mean, it is absolutely awesome. But it's a little worrisome. And what if the dry sump belt comes up I mean, there's it's just too rich for my blood. So with this you got a LS three, you plop it in your AC season, and the truck has more suspension than it does horsepower. Although I'd argue that that formula is evening out quite a bit. When we started the class has evolved already as 420 horsepower 37 inch tires, no wonder drive. Now we're up to 525 horsepower, I think 40 inch tires and under drive. So you can you can gear it a lot better. And that thing is it's so Fast and it's so smooth. And it's it's composed. It's hard like comparing it to our rock racer, we're out there beating the crap out of ourselves in the desert, just to get to the rocks. And this, you know, while while it's, you know, probably a bumpy ride for a lot of people, it just flies over stuff. It's like racing your couch that terrain. It's unbelievable because you see stuff and it's like, I'm gonna die, and you just move right over it. And it's nothing. That was that was how I felt when I started racing. You know, that class one car, and it was stuff that like you pucker up, like, you know, the bucker like, Oh, yeah, he's gonna hurt. And then you go through, like, I even feel that What? What? How did that happen? We it's like we got, you know, transported, teleported across the drain of that g out or whatever, wow, every time you do that, you realize you can get away with a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And it's an extremely competitive class. There. There are guys doing wind tunnel stuff, you know, they have choppers spotting them, they have a ton of support. And, and that's, that's great. I want to compete at that level. We've had a handful of successes. We haven't won a race yet. But I know from short course days that you not enough times, and your day will come. Oh, absolutely. So and I've fallen off a little bit in my following of this. So you know, for the uneducated here. So is when we talk about trophy truck. And then we talk about the specter of a truck. You know, and you talked about it was limited. No wonder drive. It is a spec motor. It was 37 now you can run an under drive now we're up to 525 horsepower. Now you can run 40s Is it still have the suspension with limitation or any of that because at one point, you'd have put like shorter you could take a trophy truck, but you had to put shorter arms on it. Is that still the case? Or so you're you're thinking 7200 Oh my goodness. So at this point really spec trophy truck, you have to have an LS three or I think there's an lt one there's a handful of motors that have you know 500 plus horsepower. You have to have a turbo 400 everything else well, a singlespeed underdrive i guess everything else is Game on. Oh, okay. Cool. Yeah. And I remember talking to Mike cam with Fox and I think it has four inch shocks on the back I don't know but you can get four and a half and as saying Mike you know you think we need get four and a half you know, are these four inch gonna do it? He said I don't think you'll get going fast enough to need four and a half and all I'm thinking of is come on Mike I am all in but out there you know, but it's all it's all in adjusting your vision I can remember quote from Robby Gordon saying you know life life changes after 120 miles an hour or something well, it you have to go that fast to make everything else seem a little bit slower. And that's definitely what you know, spec trophy truck or trophy truck or class one will do for you. I think that's fair. I definitely know as you are in the car, what it feels like, and then someone shows you hey, we caught video of you guys, at least while 55 and they you see the video and you're like on a trailer. But much faster. It's always that way. It's always that way, man. I hate it like oh man. I was I was like five feet in the air. No, not really. Yeah, man. So what's next? What's next for you guys? What's next? Well, you know, we are saddling up in April. And we're gonna go down and run the sanfl you pay 250 in spec trophy truck. So that's gonna be our first trip into Mexico. Since COVID. In it's always it's a big campaign going into Mexico, we got a lot of people a lot of trucks and figuring out logistics, we're finishing up this UTV pre runner to go down there. And April gets to be a pretty busy month for me because we'll do that. And hopefully we learn San Felipe Bay Area pretty well, because we'll be headed back over there for the inaugural 1000 race only, I don't know a few days later. So it's kind of a quick turnaround. You fours racing in Santa Fe this this year as well. Are you guys? Are you guys dusting off the car for any you for races this year? Or is it gonna be wait until king of hammers? 2022? Well, I think we don't know why it that's like 45 days out isn't I haven't planned it out that far. Yes. All right. We have loose plans to do the San Felipe Bay ultra for race as well. So I might as well buy a house down there. But we're kind of seeing where we come out of, of Nora and then the 250 down there because you know what it ends up Been a lot of traveling a lot of time away from home. And then with some of these forward endeavors, I travel for that too. And I, you know, shoot, I want to be home sometime and, and I want to make sure I keep a wife. Right? She knows. She knows, I'll tell you that. Which where this went, you know, I was talking at hammers about, you know, scheduling this and you're like, when does when are we going to do it? And I was like, Well, I'm giving you a case now. But it's gonna be like a month, and then it was like five weeks or so. And then you're talking to us talking through logistics discussion as well. Should I bring it with me? Shall I leave it at home? I'm going to be in Phoenix. And I was like, Listen, I'm gonna be in Wyoming. And we're gonna make this happen. And, and we made it happen. Yeah, well, it's certainly I've been a little too active lately. So what what's next is I need to, I need to slow down a little bit, honestly. And I want you know, I want to find ways this this summer and in years to come to, you know, really offer my kids more seat time, the poor guys end up helping me thrash in the shop, and then they can't get out of school to go out or school has been rough during COVID. And just with, you know, it's been learning at home, which our kids have adapted to, as well as you can, I guess. But now, there's, for whatever reason, we don't school on Wednesdays. So it's been four days a week online. And now it's four days a week in the classroom. So I really value the time that they get there. And I don't want to just pull them out to go to race after race. But come this summer, we're going to we're going to go adventure. And it's something that sounds awesome. I actually do want to bring up an adventure idea that, you know, I know this came from you. Do you think it's still possible to do the pan America all the way to the tip of South America? In today's political climate? Do you think that's possible to pull off? Like, if you did like an adventure off road? Do you know where it's you plus 90 your buddies driving like your little caravan? You think that's doable? I do. I would, you know, I wonder a little bit about the COVID restrictions right now. But it, it seems perfectly feasible to me, I and a lot of it, one of my good friends, Andrew Comrie, Jakarta, a rally driver with BFG had a concept about a pole to pole expedition. And I think it's it's actually going to happen. But in so years ago, we went up in the Arctic and went out to the Arctic Ocean. I'm going off on a tangent here. But we go out on the Arctic Ocean just to learn to see it was kind of a proof of concept for this project he's been working on, we're talking to some locals who said they had made it from the mainland, across the Buford sea, partial Arctic Ocean to resolute Island. Well, once you get to resolute Island, you can go to the North Pole. But there's there's the channels that can sometime sometimes break up the ice. So the Anyway, these guys did it, but they're telling us you have to be really careful, because with the ice flows, if you get on one, and it's imbalanced, it'll it'll flip up and your snow machine will slide off right into the ocean. And then and then it'll come right back down flat and seal you underneath there. So it was right about that time that I said, You know what, ACP I'm out. You can you can do your own football expedition. But I mean, I that that gives me nightmares. I don't want to do that. So, but she has gone down to South America is definitely something of I've wanted to do the Atacama desert and down in Patagonia, there's some really high altitude mountains down there. And someday you know, things slow down and maybe I'm not running so hard with a race schedule. That's the type of thing I want to get into again, that's that's the big next chapter. Okay, that's why I brought it up because it's totally intriguing to myself as well. I think that type of adventure when you go back and look at the old pan America races you know, in the 50s 60s 70s and what they were pulling off in like a 1956 Cadillac coupe DeVille the paint it up in rally, you know, rally for it in just ripping it on gravel roads going south. You're right. We should definitely be able to do this in turn in 2020 tech here 2021 tech, but then it's the the geopolitical issues of in the COVID issues of what the borders look like what you know, Venezuela looks like what you know, all these things, so, I don't know, I just been in your year on it. I know. I know. There are concepts maybe not as grand as that but there are concepts, whether they come to fruition or whatever. Well, I'm a part of them. I don't know. But even if I'm not I'm taking my boys and head south, you know. I love it. Well, Brad, did we cover everything you wanted to cover? We got a whole bunch about your why and I think we've been at it for a bit here, but I I really do appreciate the time just to share, like I say, share some of my story and chat with you. And it's been good. If you've been such an ambassador for rock sports, such an ambassador for getting off road, such an ambassador for, you know, just the wrenching, the Fabien the, you know, you can build it, and you've done it for years. And, and the one thing that, and I said this to you, your pre show, the one thing that I've taken from my relationship with you is how you handle sponsors. And it's interesting, you said it more than a decade ago, and it's hung with me, since they're not sponsors that they are partners. And if you go into a relationship, just looking for money, just to put a sticker on your race car, you're gonna, it's gonna dissatisfied both sides, you're both gonna walk away, not in the best of, you know, mindset, it's not going to be a successful venture, a successful relationship, if now, if you go into the door, you know, into the this, you know, this deal, eyes wide open, and you are looking for a partnership that you are going to help them and they are going to help you and you develop it with that mindset that you're going to be successful. And here we are, you know, greater than 10 years that you've been with BFG this whole time you've ripped forward even when Ford wasn't wrapping you, you've ripped Amazon oil from for forever and ever and ever. I know you're with PSC early in the in the steering game, but and then made a move over to how, you know, in the prolight days, and and you've been with how for, what 10 years now, or something like that, you know, Lincoln welders you know, all the way that we know where that marriage comes from. It comes all the way back from the torch mate days of starting doing construction, you're getting the job, you're working with those guys on porch mate welding, you know, just where you've gone over the past, you know, the past 15 years, I will tell you that I thought it was insane. When you came out and said, I'm a full time reseller I'm quitting my job. And everyone's like, where's the money to do that? I got to figure this out, like everyone wanted. And, and I will say in 2015, you actually helped me immensely in 2015. Rather, you know this or not, you know, I'd walked away from my job to do anything. Anything else I was done, I was burned out. I was not a midlife crisis. It was just let's This is ran its course on a mentally no longer engaged. This is no longer fun. I don't want to do it anymore. And we talked about a pro life program. Like you're figuring it out, and you've got other people figuring it out. Maybe this is somewhere you know, I have the dollars I can, you know, have the time I can. This may be it. Ultimately, I was like, Man, that's that's a whole lot of work that I always struggled with as a one man band to begin with. And I don't necessarily like my shop time to be ate up with, you know, on that regimen. So it wasn't for me, but you made it happen. And you kept it going and but you were there you were the guy, I was able to talk to you soundboard off of you. And you were you were straight up about it. You're like it's it's an airflow to work, but it's very rewarding. You know, I've had a lot of those discussions with other people in the industry that you kind of look out and it's like, how do they make it work? How do they make it work? And Ryan, our CFO comes to mind because he's one that I talked to about how his formula worked. But I think in the end, why whether you're starting out, or whether you're at where we're at now or higher on the food chain than us, I don't care, it takes a lot of hard work, and the only thing that's going to keep you moving his drive and passion. And that's where you know, rewind, I think you really no matter what in life, you got to do, what you're passionate about, and I you know, people people are racing to be the fastest people are racing to have the big biggest budgets and all that and I think after 15 years of doing this, what's most important to me is to be authentic and to be who we are and I hope that we can maintain that was support from our partners but it's going back to you know, we could definitely make more noise and ring the bell louder, but I'm more focused on on being authentic. So again, follow who you are, you can't fake who you are. So just do what you're good at and things will come together. Absolutely no truer words right there. Well, Brad, thank you for coming on. Thank you for bringing forward to the ultra for table that's we know we're valid we know we didn't we don't seek validity but we like it when we get it Well, there are a lot of here's that's what makes for great is because you know we got a chip on our shoulder because we're a little guys and now we're not necessarily little guys anymore. And yes for it for it is validation to that with with their effort and you know, it's it's it's a great team and it's certainly bigger than Me and we're looking to get out there and show what Bronco is all about. Well, Brad, you know much luck to your future endeavors Safe travels to Moab here shortly. Like as everyone will hear this, this is my was this past weekend. So we recorded a little bit out in front of that. But Safe travels, please keep me apprised of your adventures I would like to be involved in if you come up with a good harebrained stuff that you want to do in the future and you want to, you know, sounding boarded or come on and recruit folks come on the talent tank again, and, and we'll rally some troops for you. But, Brad, thank you for the friendship for the past, you know, decade plus, thanks for garnered so much from you over the years. And credit you to a lot of information that stuck in my head. It's been good. And thank you for thank you for agreeing to come on and sharing your story with with all of us out here. Well, thank you why and you have a lot of kind words for me. And all I'm doing is rattling on about myself, but you certainly had an influence in in my career as well. And the help you've given in direction and what you're doing with talent tank is awesome. And I look forward to seeing what's going to happen with that in the future because it's a great way. It's great stories about people and it's a great way to keep all of us together and understanding who each other are inside ultra for and off road Motorsports. Neither of us could do it without our wives. Thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Tiffany. Indeed, bosses. All right. Well, Brad, thanks for coming on, man. Thank you. I appreciate it, man. All right, we're out. Thank you for listening and taking the dive into the tail end tank. Please like and subscribe on Instagram at the tail end or our website, the talent tank.com